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THE
CHINUA ACHEBE
FOUNDATION INTERVIEW SERIES
April 2006
All Rights Reserved ©
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| *Archbishop Obinna during the interview |
Dr. Anthony J.V. Obinna, the Catholic Archbishop of
Owerri, is one of Africa Aba Rome
A former lecturer in the Religious Studies
Department of the Alvan Ikoku College of Education, Owerri, Archbishop Obinna
is the current Chair of the Education Committee of the Catholic Bishop’s
Conference of Nigeria (CBCN). He was ordained a Bishop on September 4, 1993,
and became the first Archbishop of the Catholic Archdiocese of Owerri when it
was created in 1994.
In this interview with UGOCHUKWU EJINKEONYE, Archbishop Obinna canvasses an attitudinal
change, which he hopes will help steer Nigeria out of its present
political, moral, and economic descent, and reroute it to the path of progress
and lasting development.
Excerpts:
Your Grace, do you think we can in all honesty say that we have freedom
of worship in Nigeria
Well,
constitutionally there is freedom of worship. So, to some extent, it is
possible to say: yes, Nigerians worship as they choose. But we have had
problems in certain parts of our country, where people were prevented from
worshipping, as they desire. There have been attempts to muzzle Christians in
some parts of the country, and that goes to show that the freedom of worship
enshrined in the constitution is not given its full play. In the more
Christian-dominated areas, I believe that there is no prevention of anybody
from being a Moslem, from worshipping God. But in some areas of our country,
there have been churches that were bulldozed, and land allocations have been
refused to Christian worshippers.
Given
the pluralistic nature of our society, we cannot force everybody to become
either Christian or Moslem. So, what this calls for is openness of mind,
accommodation and tolerance so that people are free to worship as they wish. Of
course, freedom of religion cannot be interpreted in an anti-human way. If a
religion teaches people to kill either members of the same religion or
non-members, the laws of the land that forbids murder must be respected. To
kill in the name of God is outrageous murder; whether a person kills in the
name of Christ or in the name of Mohammed, or even in the name of the Pope, it
must be clear that any killing of a human being is outrageous in the sight of
God. You cannot steal in the name of God or Allah. Our freedom of worship does
not give us the leeway to do what we like in the name of religion. Religion has
to be practiced with responsibility. It ought, also, to be accountable; in
theory, it may claim to be peaceful, but in practice the record can be bloody
and terrible.
What should be the relationship between religion and the state?
Religion,
with its structures, constitutes an institution in the society, the same way
the state with its own structures constitutes another institution. We have here
two very important units with clearly defined roles. But since those who come
into religion belong to every strata of society, including the government, it
is expected that they should let the moral principles derived from their religion
govern their attitude to work.
There
is absolutely no need for the state and religion to merge. If the governor or
commissioner is a Christian or Moslem, he’s not expected to turn his office
into a mosque or church. The state is a public apparatus. What one is expected
to do is to infuse the passion for truth, justice and fair play imbibed from
one’s religion into governance. Whether he is at the Legislative or Executive
arm of government, such a person should ensure that what is legislated or executed
are right and just. The same thing applies to those at the Judiciary.
But
trouble ensues when a governor or president goes ahead to plant his or her
religious leader at the seat of power, and state apparatus suddenly assumes the
nature of a religious system. Sometimes, religion can be politicized and
manipulated. And so you get palace clergymen who only pray according to the
intentions of the leader. And this may create incidences of conflict for the
state and religion, especially in a situation where a particular priest, pastor
or bishop in a state may become too friendly with the governor or the president
as to now subject his religious work to government authority. One way or the
other, the religious leader can capitulate, become a tool and slave to government.
But if the religious leader is the prophetic type, his calling will even compel
him to periodically critique the government so as to rouse the conscience of
public officers to the expectation of the people towards them.
What is
required is for religion and the state to complement each other. We need
religious people to pray and maintain the banner of righteousness. We also need
the government to use the resources of the nation in an upstanding way. So, if
God is the owner of both religion and government, He would expect that
uprightness should reign in both very vital segments of the society.
In his widely quoted pre-conclave homily, the [former] head of the Roman
Catholic Church, Pope Benedict VXI (then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger), came down
hard on what he called the “dictatorship
of relativism.” Were you worried by the harsh reactions of the Western
press to that sermon?
No, I
wasn’t surprised at all, because I’m very familiar with the Western world,
having lived in Europe and America
But
there is also the other side of Western culture; built up from the religious
side, particularly from Israel – Moses to Christ— down to the apostles that
gave birth to Christianity. So, in the Western world, we have these two forces;
the religious force on the one hand, and the naturalist and rational forces on
the other hand. Those who have immersed themselves in pure naturalism and
rationalism perceive everything as relative. But those who cling to the
Christian tradition respect the human being and creation as gifts of God. They
want to bring divine principles to rule human life.
So, if
you understand this background, you can then appreciate the reaction of the
Western Press – which is largely secularistic, atheistic, anti-Christ,
anti-God. And anybody trying to remind them of God is often attacked. For them,
the Pope is touching on what has become a sensitive point. So, I’m not
surprised. You can even see that in the Anglican community, there is now a
split between the African Anglicans and the Western or American Anglicans,
because a number of the Anglicans have followed the way of naturalism,
homosexuality, lesbianism and anything goes.
So,
this dictatorship of relativism is what the Western media is trying to spread
across the world. But the Pope, even though he comes from the Western world,
has imbibed a different kind of orientation, and now propagates a healthier
tradition, the tradition of God. And to that tradition I belong, even though I
am very familiar with the Western secular world.
Are you worried by the growing culture of indecent and even weird
dressing among many Nigerians, especially, the youth? Men are even perforating
their ears, noses and all that? What do you think accounts for this penchant to
copy only the worst, and the most horrible, from the Western world?
Well,
we haven’t quite fully recovered from the old indoctrination that everything
from Europe or America America
The lecture series are conducted in my Igbo
language; that every one in the village can understand. And I have discovered
that it gives my people a great sense of joy, because I am helping them
rediscover their identity, and to know that Igbo language is as good as
English, French or any other, and never a mark of stupidity if you speak only
Igbo. That there are very brilliant people who speak only Igbo because, after
all, it was through the natural talents of farmers, fishermen and traders who
never went to school, and what they cultivated, that their children were able
to become trained as engineers and scientists. Indeed, many children of
farmers, wine-tappers and wrestlers, have turned out to be excellent role
models, because it is the practical knowledge of our people that laid the
foundation for further intellectual or mental development of the later
generation.
So, until
we become re-orientated with and be appreciative of the things around us, we
shall always run after the white man. Now, although the white man has
accomplished a great many good things, his society is far from perfect. Much of
the present preoccupations of Western society do not seem to give its people
joy. So, they end up being confused, and unhappy, and that is what some our
people are running after.
So, I
think it’s a matter of mis-education and misguidance by people who don’t have
real values. They are living by what we call popular values, popular culture.
Cars, dresses, shoes and what they can wear on their eyes and noses are more
important to them. At a time, our children didn’t wear clothes until a certain
age; yet it did not create any moral confusion. Now, people are exhibiting
thighs and breasts when decency demands that they should cover them up.
I used
to tell my students when I was lecturing at Alvan Ikoku College of Education,
Owerri, that instead of retouching their brain, all they do is retouch their
hair! So, we are no longer touching up the brain for higher things. It is
unfortunate. We have shifted emphasis to less-inspiring and unedifying habits.
Harmful practices like prostitution, cultism, robbery and violence are
on the rise, especially among young people, and it does seem that efforts to
combat these are progressively sabotaged by the television [and home videos].
How do we come out of this?
Well,
this is an area where the government of our country with their policies have
proved unhelpful, and shown that they don’t understand the psychology of the
young. They are unaware that young people’s minds can be destroyed and
distorted as early as the age of ten. Because some of our leaders have also
bought into these superficial, artificial values, they have no understanding of
the need for screening, and instead allow the airing of unsuitable television
content at periods of the day when children can watch them. And these
unscrupulous adults may not even be around to combat the fallout of these
experiences when the children are now tempted to practice what they picked up
from the videos they watch.
So, it
requires a leadership that understands the sensitivity and importance of
forming children with important values, even before they are ten and twelve
years. Because, at that point, children are immensely impressionable. We had to
make a public statement last week about the introduction of Sex
Education in schools, which I personally believe is corrupting to the
children. These people are just importing Western values, and so, our women,
thanks be to God, have risen. They have gone to the Federal Ministry of
Education to protest against this corrupting influence. But the way to
effectively fight it is to provide alternative programmes, especially on
television, that will give more positive orientation to our children, and I
think licenses should be given to responsible religious bodies to do this.
You
know the government has been very reluctant to give out licenses to religious
bodies. Of course, it is true that some of the religious bodies have proved to
be part of the destroyers of the society, but government could exercise the
right to restrict, and not completely ban religious bodies like ours. I, for
one, wouldn’t want to present a programme that will distort the minds of the
people. I am an educationist, a religionist and social leader. And I am
concerned about the future of the children. So, if government would open up the
channels to allow more responsible television programming by religious bodies
with excellent educational track records, we can turn the tide.
When I
switch on the television today, what do I see? Murder, bloodshed, violence,
immorality…hey! So, an alternative to this is a more positive, healthy approach
that does not promote violence, immorality, and seduction. That’s the only way.
You don’t think that government should introduce some form of
censorship, as in the past, and even extend it to the pornographic magazines
that fill our newsstands these days?
As I
said earlier, if we have leaders who are concerned about the future of this
nation, a lot of things will be done right. It is my observation that the
Western world is in a state of confusion. And because we have also inherited
aspects of Western culture, we have also inherited the confusion that comes
with it. But if we had a more spiritual, moral, serious and sensitive
leadership in this country, it would address these issues. And the people will
share that sense of responsibility, you know, to restrict the kind of things
that they read and watch, in order to promote a more positive culture. Indeed,
there is a need for censorship of what we take in, and the earlier the relevant
authorities and bodies respond adequately to this challenge, the better for our
society.
The rate at which HIV/AIDS is spreading is alarming. But some of us are
seriously questioning the intentions behind campaigns deployed to combat it
that seem, in actual fact, to aid the erosion of the moral foundation of our
society. When hopefully a vaccine is found and the scourge is over, how will
the moral reclamation of society begin?
Well, I
have spoken to various audiences in the church and outside about this matter of
promiscuity, immorality and diseases. Of course, there is human weakness all
over the world, and when people indulge their weaknesses, they are vulnerable
to contracting diseases one way or the other. As you rightly pointed out, the
manner the situation is being handled cannot lead to the discipline that should
have been established in the first place. Rather when you say: well people are
bound to have sex, so make it easy for them, give them condoms, give them
contraceptives, human beings being what they are would sometimes not want the
condoms, the contraceptives, or even worse, these things may fail. Indeed, it
has to be clear that those bringing in contraceptives and condoms might just
want to promote promiscuity simply to provide a market for these products.
But I
also want everyone to note that Western societies have a low birth rate, and
there is the fear that Africans might continue to multiply, and prove to be a
global force to contend with like China
Thanks
be to God that the Moslems as well joined in the visit to the Federal Ministry
of Education to protest against the promotion of immorality. Imagine exposing
children of nine and ten years to ideas about homosexuality, masturbation,
lesbianism and how to enjoy sex. Instead of raising their ideals they fill them
with pernicious knowledge which would awake in them emotions they are incapable
of handling.
So, it
requires courage to go against the current. We have to teach people that it is
possible to be chaste. It is possible to be self-controlled. If you can be
self-controlled for one day, you can as well be for one month. If you can be
controlled for a month, you can as well do it for one year or two years. This
is important, so we can get healthy marriages, that will not produce
contaminated, sick children, and those that will be weak specimens. So, our
mission is to promote chastity, to call also to conversion those who have made
mistakes.
God
doesn’t want the loss of anyone. He says He’s not interested in the death of
the sinner but that the sinner should repent and live. But the trouble comes
when we begin to declare by words or actions that there is no more sin. No, we
must take the necessary precautions ourselves so that we don’t make the
situation worse. It is because we recognize our weakness as human beings that
we cling to Christ and the Word of God. My help is in the name of the Lord who
made heaven and earth. The nearer I am to God, the stronger I am. But if a
person becomes careless and lives only with people who are promiscuous, who are
immoral, even if he was strong, he may begin to decay and degenerate.
Not too long ago, the Berlin-based Transparency International (TI)
awarded Nigeria Nigeria
Well, I
don’t really give too much attention to the placement of Nigeria America is
corrupt, Europe is also corrupt. My
worry is that our own people collude with others to rip us off. These
foreigners are too eager to collude with our people, because they believe we
have so much money stolen from Nigeria ,
and stashed in either Switzerland or New York
In fact
some years ago, while I was in Washington
There
are, however, people who are working to make things worse for us in Nigeria Nigeria Nigeria
Do you think the present government is helping to bring about the
desired change?
Well,
this present government is a kind of conundrum. It is not a straightforward
arrow. It is mixed music, with several tunes. We are still looking forward. The
rhetoric is good, the language is correct, but the action is dubious. Nothing
is transparent, beginning with the elections. We had hoped that, after late
Gen. Sani Abacha and Gen. Abdulsalami Abubakar, we would have been able to
begin on a clean slate; but, how the country ended up under a military man, I
still can’t explain. Indeed, I believe that this is part of the problem we are
still facing. However, certain credit was given to the present leadership,
initially. And this is because, we had believed that under a President who had
experienced imprisonment, there would have been a revolutionary change.
Unfortunately, this did not happen. Under this current leadership, the same
problems have continued to emerge. The expectation had been that a realistic
action-plan would have been put in place, which would, much more than EFCC,
ICPC and other agencies, help us track the porous ways through which Nigeria is
losing its money.
So,
although the leadership has spoken a very good language, we still seem to be
where we were. I think it was Marx who said: “well the philosophers have
interpreted the situation correctly, but the important thing is to change it…”
Is there something about the Nigerian environment that provides
incentive for cutting-corners? The same Nigerian who endeavours to keep rules
in other countries would be quick to try and beat the system here?
Yes,
here, we have what is called the “big man syndrome.” Some people consider
themselves ten or even hundred times more important than the rest. But I know
that in spite of my being a Bishop, I’m just a commoner, my blood is as common
as any other blood. There is nothing like royal blood. It’s the same ordinary blood
that flows in me that flows in the president or governor or traditional ruler.
So, there is an illusion about our personalities that makes some of us unable
to accept ourselves as ordinary people; maybe, because of the titles we have or
the position we occupy in society. And some people now define themselves more
in terms of their titles, qualifications or ranks, wanting to bulldoze their
way through society, and encourage others to do so as well.
So,
it’s a kind of psychic disease akin to pomposity, which I call pomposis.
You may not find it in the dictionary but it has to do with excessive obsession
with pomp and pageantry. Such a person comes across as an inflated balloon.
Every other person has to give way when a “big man” is passing. And if you
delay, his men could push you into the gutter.
But why do Nigerians manifest such behaviour only when they are in Nigeria Ghana
No,
they cannot, because the people there have deflated themselves. Even in America or Europe ,
I mean the president is just ordinary Mr. President.
Even governors, in some countries, use the same buses as every other
person as they go to work in the morning.
Well,
in Nigeria Nigeria
What is your message to Nigerians on corruption?
I cannot give
any message to Nigerians in general. I can only give a message to the leaders,
because the people are either good or bad followers depending, to a large
extent, on who is leading them. So, my message is not for the poor man who has
reached a point of frustration –I can only sympathize with him, and tell him to
be patient, that things will certainly get better.
My
message is more for the leaders, and I am telling them to deflate themselves,
and realize that they are ordinary mortals like every other person. The poor
people they despise today may be the ones to carry their corpses tomorrow; so,
I am pleading with them, and praying that the Lord touches their minds and
hearts. Our elites must realize that until they destroy this sense of elitism,
and tell themselves that even Christ Himself came into this life to identify
with the lowliest human being, nothing can change for the better.
So, my
challenge is to the leaders is this: Let us commit class suicide! I
am ready to commit class suicide any time. I am trying everyday, to ensure I
don’t feel that I am more important than others, because I happen to be an
Archbishop. It’s just a service that I am rendering; I know that somebody else
can as well do it, even better than I can. Why then should I hold on to the
illusion that I am the most important man in the land?
Would you mind naming a particular phenomenon that greatly tasks your
faith in the Nigerian system?
Well,
it’s like coming back to the same issue of leadership and its dislocation of
the entire social system; there is disarray in the system. Anytime you ply our
roads – whether it is the Owerri-Port-Harcourt Road Onitsha-Owerri Road Nigeria Nigeria
We tend
to do things haphazardly. There is no longer a sense of thoroughness and
excellence. Yet, the country is considered to be very rich, and this is a
problem. What you see is a symptom of bad leadership. It creates decay and
disorganization. There is little expectation that things will happen the way
they ought to happen.
There is the suspicion that Nigeria
Well,
every nation was born with certain, inherent, contradictions. All that is
required is bracing up, working hard, getting a common vision, and deciding to
put the vision into effect. But what happens in Nigeria
We are
not yet one people. The concept of one Nigeria Nigeria Nigeria
Take a
person like Nelson Mandela, for instance. For 25 years, he fought and remained
committed to a cause; he suffered and was imprisoned. But from all this he
emerged the president of South
Africa Nigeria
The
case of Mahatma Gandhi comes to mind here. He had trained as a lawyer in London , and then went to South Africa South Africa , he
began to fight racial discrimination, carrying the struggle back to India
He did
this to give a boost to production of textile material in India India
And
because of this, the Indians can look back today and say: Oh! Thanks be to God
for a man like Gandhi. He gave them the fighting spirit, the spirit to excel;
today, even in science and technology, India Nigeria was
even more successful than India Malaysia
Okay, but it would seem that we perennial lack the capacity to get it
right. In Nigeria
Well,
someone just came back from Ghana Ghana Nigeria
When
President John Kufour visited us – that is, the Catholic Bishops of West Africa
– where we were meeting in the Volta Region, it was a very simple visit. We
didn’t see any army and police escorts shouting at or intimidating and
harassing anybody. That was the first thing that struck us there. So, Ghana
Industries are relocating to Ghana due
to the availability of functional amenities that are lacking in Nigeria
Well,
you are telling me. For the past seven or eight years now, Ghanaians have been
working hard. When I was in Accra a
little while ago, they told me that their best engineers were brought together
in the spirit of patriotism to make sure that Ghana Ghana Africa , and there is
discipline and dedication in those places. I was in Ivory Coast
I’ve
not been to South
Africa Tanzania
And
in America America
There
is an alarming state of insecurity in the land. Nigerians have never felt so
unsafe, whether on the highways or at home. Even the churches have not been
spared. Only recently, a number of Roman Catholic parishes and even a nunnery
were invaded by hoodlums. In one particular case, a priest was killed; what are
your thoughts on this?
Well, the simple reason is greed; the greed of
the leaders of our nation. This greed fuels disparity, because some people have
accumulated too much of the commonwealth for themselves. So, due to the
economic disparity engendered by this situation, an invitation seems to have
been thrown to the impatient among us to take their turn at becoming rich. Some
vicious ones are using guns to shoot their way into power and money while
others have used their influence and connections to corner some part of it.
Now, not everybody is in a position to shoot his way to power or manipulate and
steal the votes of the people…to acquire and hold on to power illegitimately.
So,
those who have no patience now say: well, we also have to survive; how can all
these people be millionaires and billionaires while we remain ‘nothingnaires’?
So, this is what has caused the problem. But if we had a more equitable
society, we would not be having all these problems. People, you know, become
more relaxed when there is merited wealth; however, when there are people
visibly stinking with riches and others stinking with wretchedness, then we can
expect these things.
I am
not surprised that the church is also being visited by marauders, because, on
the one hand, the church by nature is a vulnerable institution. We are not
guarded by the army or police. Anybody can visit me. Some years back, I was
visited by armed robbers, right in my bedroom. I lost two cars to them. This
experience made me realize that our people are really suffering. If it could
happen to the Bishop, priests and the church, then we have to know that the
matter is really serious. It shows the amount of violence being visited on our
people everyday. It helps the church to realize that our people are really
suffering, and that the suffering has now overflowed into the Bishop’s house,
into the priest’s house.
I don’t
go about with soldiers or policemen. This helps me realize that my life is just
in God’s hands. And anybody can shoot me any time. So, I don’t worry about
security; rather, I share the vulnerability of my people. It is those who are
hiding from the people, who have stolen wealth, that build barricades around
themselves. I have no big barricade. I can be captured any day.
The problem is even more complex. It is like those who are able to
escape armed robbers still face the grave danger posed by flying police
bullets.
Well,
it all goes back to the issue of leadership. If we are blessed with a
leadership that identifies with the frustrations of the people, leaves itself
vulnerable, a leadership that is made to account for its deeds, then things
will definitely change. If people see that the commissioners, governors, House
members, etc., are not living above their earnings, and showing off illicitly
acquired cars and mansions, or flying out of the country to put away stolen
money in foreign banks, when they see that their leaders live close to them,
instead of hiding in fortresses or expensive hotels to squander the nation’s
resources, the frustrations that give rise to these problems will abate. Peace
and safety will take the place of violence. So, our problem is basically that
of leadership. Achebe said it, long ago, that the trouble with Nigeria
Now, you have witnessed several elections in Nigeria
Yes,
indeed. This is a matter that I have been closely involved with. Having lived
during colonialism, witnessed the period of the crisis in Nigeria in the 1960s,
experienced the Nigerian-Biafra War, survived detention in a Nigerian military
camp and the war itself, and by God’s grace, joined the rest of surviving
Nigerians or Biafrans, at the time, to say – Well, thanks be to God, we are
still alive – I had looked forward to better days, especially, under the
slogan, “No Victor, No Vanquished.”
We believed that Nigeria
So,
there were, indeed, the “victors” and the “vanquished.” Then during the 1979
elections, there seemed to have been some semblance of equity. Though, as had
happened in the 50s and the 60s, there were still cases of violence. But somehow Nigeria America
So, I
was monitoring the political and economic developments in Nigeria Nigeria one night while I was tuning in
from America Nigeria
In
1999, we thought that, finally, we were exiting the military era; but what
happened in 2003, before my very eyes, was most unexpected. The situation was
such that, after casting my vote here in Owerri, the INEC official there said
to me: Look, Archbishop, I know you have voted, but you have to stand here and
guard this ballot box. Because once you leave, it will be stolen and taken away
from here. I said waoh! Has it really come to this? An official of the electoral
commission deploying me to guard the ballot box? I said to him: well, you
people can do whatever you want, but the consequences will surely come. And
just as he said, an hour later, as I heard, the ballot boxes were indeed stolen
by thugs of the party on ground. Up until now, those results have not been
released. So, if any “results” were released, we don’t know where they have
come from.
This
clearly shows that we do not yet have the spirit of love for our people, and
for the development of our country. It demonstrates that there is massive greed
and selfishness surrounding our electoral process. And until this massive
greed, individual or corporate, is removed, we shall not succeed with
elections. Our democracy and the development of the people will continue to
stagnate. Sadly, there’s no sign yet that things will improve in this regard.
Perhaps, the elections in 2007 will give us the final verdict? Either we get it
right this time around, or we simply forget about it.
How, in your view, should INEC be constituted and funded to rise above
the manipulations of the government and influential people in the polity?
Well,
the first thing would be to create an understanding, the awareness that any
money used in servicing public institutions is public money. It belongs neither
to the president nor the governor. I think that this is the first thing that
must be clearly emphasized to those in positions of leadership; they must
resist the temptation of claiming ownership of public funds. One example would
be instances where a governor takes credit for any donation of state funds. The
money does not belong to him; the donation is on behalf of the state that he
serves! And until that spiritual, moral exercise is successfully accomplished,
it will be difficult to talk about the independence of INEC.
So,
when the people in public office purge themselves of the delusion that public
funds belong to them, simply because they are the ones disbursing it, when
there is an accompanying passion to have free and fair elections by all
stakeholders, everything will be in place to make the INEC chairman truly
independent. And I think I’ve heard it mentioned often that we need to adopt a
policy whereby, about three months to elections, the president and governors
would vacate their offices and hand over to the chief judge or whosoever the
law prescribes. We have discovered from experience the unworkablity of allowing
leaders at different levels to retain powers they may use to influence
elections in which they are participating. The independence of INEC would be
truly ensured when this is done. At least, we would now know who to actually
hold responsible when elections are mismanaged; but right now, there is so much
confusion. Are we really going to hold the INEC chairman, the governor or
president responsible? Who really is calling the shots during elections? That’s
the problem.
But what part does poverty actually play in electoral process in this
country? There is the belief that if the majority of Nigerians can at least
afford their daily meals, they would not be easily manipulated by politicians
during elections.
Well,
poverty by itself is not a vice. There are many poor people who remain honest
even when they know that others have much more materially than they do. So,
it’s not poverty that is the problem. The issue is that we have people from
poor backgrounds who also happen to be greedy. Indeed, not every person has the
same level of resistance towards bribes, and that is why there are people who
would be willing to accept inducements to vote for the wrong people.
Unfortunately, these people may not even be aware that by these actions they
are mortgaging their own future.
The
politicians, therefore, go all out to exploit these greedy, naïve poor. Not too
long ago, during the 2003 elections, as politicians brought food items to win
the hearts of the electorate, a poor old woman was able to stand up in the
market place and declare: look, it is
this stockfish, rice and soft drinks these people are bringing that will spoil
this election! The voice of this woman was able to dissuade some people
with conscience from collecting those items, while the greedy ones still went
ahead to collect. So, poverty, by itself, is not our problem, but rather the
greedy politicians who come to find the greedy poor and use them to introduce
confusion.
Any message to the electorate?
Well, I
have composed a prayer for upright voting and honest counting in
view of the 2007 elections. I hope to launch this prayer on the 27th of
November, which will be the beginning of the new church year for us in the
Catholic Church. I am hoping that the chairman of INEC will be at that mass. It
will be a way of helping him and challenging our people to take this election
seriously and move towards upright voting and
the honest counting of our votes. These are
the two key issues. Let the process be transparent and honest. Whatever votes
any candidate or party gets should be credited to him. If the process of voting
is made free and fair, then we’ll have upright voting. And if the votes are
counted honestly, then we’ll get honest results. Whoever is going to occupy a
position will know that he truly has the people’s mandate, not a stolen one.
When was the last time you revisited your old primary and secondary
schools? Has anything changed in terms of the quality of infrastructure and
staff? Do you think today’s public schools or even the so-called private one,
are capable of producing someone of your calibre?
Well, I
started off in a primary school in Umuahia, continued in Enyiogugu, Mbaise, and
then in Ikeduru. I have revisited some of them, and in fact they made me sad.
The fields, the grounds, and the farms we had in those days – because we had an
all round type of formation in the primary schools – everything that was capable
of developing a person, intellectually, spiritually, morally, physically, has
changed. One of the schools I see quite often has become an eyesore compared to
what it was in those days.
In some
places, the government has done one thing or the other, but mainly tokenisms;
not the real revolutionary change that these schools require and yearn for. So,
when I compare some of the primary schools that I see in Europe and America
So,
that is why I feel very sad. But, thanks be to God; we still have a few places,
mainly private or mission schools and even a few government schools, federal or
state government-owned, that we can say are measuring up. Indeed, for us as a
church, fulfillment comes from the completeness of every part: environment,
classrooms, dormitories, kitchen, toilets, etc. Every part is essential for the
proper education of a human being.
So what is the way out?
Well,
the Saint Christopher’s Group in America Father Cloonan Memorial Secondary School
So, all hopes should now be focused on the private sector?
It does
appear so; but hope has to be focused on both the public and private, because
we need to complement each other. We cannot have everybody attending only
church schools or private schools. We need government schools of excellent
quality. Of course, in the past, we had more mission schools than government
schools. And the products of these schools excelled in all fields. In any
proper society, you need the services of both parties, and it makes for healthy
competition.
Unfortunately,
the monopolization syndrome has ensured that we don’t get any subsidies or
grants. Because education should really be a corporate enterprise, those of us
who are not earning salaries need the support of the government and foundations
to help us build quality schools. I’m really, as it were, using my teeth, as
the Igbo people would say, to string out, you know, money to build these
schools. But you’ll be impressed with what we’ve accomplished, because our children
now have access to a healthy environment that allows them to optimize their
learning. So there is hope; it’s coming, but it’s going to take some time.
After long years of devastation, to heal is a very slow process. It is easier
to destroy than to build up. And the military and their political cohorts
destroyed so much.
The 2005 Odenigbo Lectures has just taken place. What do you aim to
achieve by these lectures?
Well,
the lecture is part of a larger mission I have in the Church, Igboland , Nigeria ,
and Africa . It seeks to expand the
evangelical, redemptive mission that I have embraced as a Catholic Christian.
So, I use the lectures to carry out the mission of transforming the world. It
is a multi-dimensional Lecture Series, in that it touches the spiritual, the
moral, the social, the scientific, and the philosophical. So, it is my way of
orchestrating the good news of God, manifest in creation and redemption.
Indeed, it is part of my mission, and I believe yours too, to renew the face of
the earth to the glory of God and the good of humanity. This is what the Odenigbo Lecture Series is all about.
And the
2005 version was particularly significant, since it was given by an
environmental engineer, Professor Victor Okereke, who focused on what we can do
through agriculture to get food on people’s tables, and really get back the
original steam of fantastic agricultural development that we had in the days of
M.I. Okpara and Akanu Ibiam (former premier and governor of the defunct Eastern
Region). It is interesting that this young man himself got involved in
agriculture as a young schoolboy, and God has blessed him with fantastic
scientific knowledge, to enable us get back to the creativity that made Eastern Nigeria a great agricultural region. That’s
the whole idea.
You must be aware of the serious threat to the Igbo language. Readership
for materials written in Igbo has dropped to almost zero. As a promoter of this
language, do you have any programmes to help recover the situation?
Well,
yes... Since I started the Odenigbo Lecture
Series, there has been a certain revival of interest,
definitely, in the Igbo language. Just before last year’s Odenigbo Lecture, I
went live on radio, on the FRCN, in Igbo language. It was a phone-in programme,
and I was fascinated by the encouraging calls and conversations that took place
in Igbo. Some of the callers, in fact, said that since the commencement of the
Odenigbo Lectures, they have learned to speak, read, and write Igbo. It gave me
great joy to hear this. So, through the Odenigbo Lectures and the Ozisa newspaper
that we are still running – even though it is a quarterly publication that
comes out four times a year – people are able to read Igbo the more. I felt
that it wasn’t enough simply to have the annual Odenigbo Lecture Series,
that it would be nice also to have a newspaper. It may not be that popular, but
people know that it exists. And there has been encouraging responses to it.
We have
also from the Seat of Wisdom Seminary, a journal that comes out in Igbo, a
lovely publication, the Onoi Journal. So, I
see the possibility of further growth of the Igbo language. There are new books
being published, and some people have sent me copies. And there is also a group
in London
I was
in London New York America – New
York , Los Angeles
I’m
hoping somewhat that we will create a learning centre for NdiIgbo who really
want to pick up the Igbo language. And I discovered that since I dived into
Igbo – because I didn’t study it in the School Certificate or G.C.E – my
English has improved. I have found that I think in Igbo and also in English,
and sometimes translate ideas from Igbo to English. But some expressions are
more powerful in the Igbo language. So, I now move from the Igbo language into
the English language. However, my efforts will require the encouragement of
other people too. The government sends delegations once in a while, and we can
see that even in Imo State
The
influence of Odenigbo in Anambra State
I can’t
be as creative as the English are with their language. And whatever I create in
English is only a small addition to their repertoire. But when I dig into the
Igbo language and produce new concepts and new words, I enrich myself and the
entire Igbo world.
I was wondering whether you are a poet as well, because when recently I
listened to you on the Carolina
I am
not a poet by profession; but, now and again, God gives me messages that come
across poetically. I am essentially a theologian, a scholar in the field of
religion, education and the social sciences. But I like to combine these
various dynamics, because I believe that God fulfils Himself in so many ways.
Through religion, poetry, literature, and science, God fulfils Himself.
Who are your favourite authors?
Well,
at this point in time, I have a lot of books. It’s just that any book that
comes across my way, I will read it, and if I enjoy it, I may keep going back
to it. Well, of course, you might wish to know that Achebe is one of my
favorite authors.
He once delivered the Odenigbo Lecture.
Yes,
but even before then … because, for my doctoral dissertation, I studied Things Fall
Apart and Arrow of God very
intensively. I used them, in fact, as background material for the kind of work
I was doing as an educationist and theologian. And I continuously refer back to
Achebe, because I see Things Fall Apart and Arrow of God as
the Old and New Testaments of Igbo culture. Each time I want to understand the
dynamics of Igbo culture, of the African world in its primal situation, I go to
Achebe.
Of
course, beyond Achebe, having been exposed to the East and West, there are
authors that I have also enjoyed reading; they are too many to mention, but I
cannot fail to mention, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, the Russian writer. There
are two books he wrote, little nuggets, you know; each time I go back to them,
I find them very illuminating. There was a letter he wrote to Soviet leaders in
1973, for which he was suddenly removed. He had told them: Look, forget about
all this Marxism, and Communism, because, it is only God in Christ that can
redeem Russia
I also
enjoy reading the French-American writer, Rene Girard, who
was a professor of comparative literature, at the John Hopkins University
Are you worried about the extremely poor reading culture in Nigeria
Well, I
think we are in a transition from what you might call the book culture to the
video culture; the new world of CDs and everything that comes through the
internet. But, there is still a lot of reading taking place, although not so
much through books, as through the internet. Indeed, you can almost go to the
internet and read up anything. I can read the New York Times right
here in my room. So, the book culture hasn’t died. It’s just that it is now
coming in a new package.
In Nigeria
Well,
this is part of the devastation of the intellectual culture by the military in
our country. You know, in the past, to become a soldier was like: well what
else can I do if I can’t go to school? So, such a person joins the army. The
soldiers were generally seen as people that swaggered and made a lot of noise
that lacked substance. When then the military grabbed power, they grabbed
literally everything, and almost succeeded in devastating the [intellectual]
culture. They devastated the universities, the schools, promoted the wielding
of raw power, and glorified money and all that. Of course, you know that the
military seems to be made up of mostly people who lack refinement. Once they
got hold of the gun, they felt they had become almighty and also omniscient.
But we have all since realized that this wasn’t the way to go.
Unfortunately,
some of our great intellectuals capitulated to the intimidation and power
wielded by these riffraff. That is why people like Ofia Nwali and Ukpabi Asika, operating
under the aegis of the military, helped to devastate our schools, a situation
we are yet to recover from. As you might recall, at some point, due to
the commander-in-chief syndrome
introduced by the army, young people even began to imitate
the-commanders-in-chief. On the campuses, they were no longer interested in
acquiring knowledge that came from reading books. Lecturers began to relax;
incidents of cultism increased. And the head of the cult became more important
than the head of the department or even the vice-chancellor. People were
intimidated, because one cannot fight people wielding guns and knives. You
can’t fight them with ideas they can’t understand.
So,
this is what happened; the projection of the roughshod military as a model for
Nigerians caused a great erosion, a real hemorrhage, in our value system.
Instead of reading books, for instance, people preferred to count money, even
if ill-gotten, wield guns about, purchase cars and flashy gadgets. Even
“419” fraudsters have members of the military guarding them. This is to
show that they indeed ‘have arrived.’ So, intellectualism began to be
considered as something that needed to be done away with.
How would you describe Archbishop Obinna?
Archbishop
Obinna is just an ordinary human being, created in the image and likeness of
God, like you and the rest of mankind, who has been given this privilege of
coming to be in a position of service to God and humanity. So, I’m just a
servant of God, seeking by God’s grace and the help of my brothers and sisters
to do my little bit to fulfill the will of God and make my world, the place
where I live and work, a better place for all of us, as much as lies in my
power. There are no illusions about who I am. I am just a servant who is asking
the Lord constantly to help me to live up to expectation and not be a
disappointment, so that others can find encouragement from my service to also
do the will of God and help the world to be a better place.
What are your hobbies?
My
hobbies? Well reading, reading and reading! Now and again I take a walk because
to keep alive is also part of my hobby; to take a walk around my surroundings,
look up to the skies and admire the beauty of creation, listen to the birds. I
no longer have enough time now, but there was a time I used to listen to the
birds sing, and from that, I would pick up the melody and turn it into words. I
just love God’s creation. So, it’s part of my joy. Thinking is both a serious
preoccupation and hobby for me. You know, jotting a few things down now and
again. But it has suffered too. I used to play soccer and tennis. My table
tennis board is equally suffering. Each time, I am sure it laments the lack of
my regular company any more. I just love the world, everything around me. So,
my hobby is to be appreciative of the universe and people, to do whatever I can
to make people happy and relaxed, and to share life with people.
Thank you very much, Your Grace. I am sure you would want to share with
us your feeling about the Chinua Achebe Foundation interview project.
Well,
I’m excited about it and Achebe being the Iroko of a man that he is, a man who
responded to my call to give the Odenigbo Lecture in 1999,
I’ve been very much delighted that he continues to push ideas and to sustain
this elevation of the mind beyond the decay around us. So, he is a man to whom
the Igbo world, the African world, and, in fact, humanity at large owe so much
to, so, I believe in these causes that Achebe continues to pilot and espouse.
So, Achebe continues to fly. And I pray the Lord to bless him, so that he would
continue to soar and attract the best minds, hoping that this gingering of
Nigerian minds will lead to eventual transformation, because that has always
been his desire – the writer as a reformer, thinker and moral persuader. So, I
pray the Lord to bless him and bless the Series. I must say that I am delighted
to be part of it. I don’t know what credentials enabled me to be part of it,
but in any case, it is an honour for me to be part of this Chinua Achebe Foundation Interview Series. And God bless you for
coming.
------------------------------------------------
*Ugochukwu Ejinkeonye is on the Editorial Board of the Daily Independent, a national newspaper published in Lagos , Nigeria.
Interview conducted in late 2005;
First published April 14, 2006
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